Friday, October 28, 2005
Myths and beliefs
Lot of interesting thoughts that sprang out of the last few posts. one interesting one was the comments of Zero, who raised a point on the previous post on how gandhi will be mythologized and how krishna could have lived but he might not have been the man the stories talk about.
This reminded me of a story in "Freedom at Midnight".Freedom at midnight was based on well researched materials and the diaries of lord mountbatten. The british govt which had so many articles on the lifestyle of the prince and kings of india, had to burn all those articles when the kings demanded it, before the british declare independence to india.So much of the information regarding the lifestyle of the kings were lost.But there were some of them that escaped the fire and lord mountbatten also had written many of the interesting things in his diaries. Here are some of the incidents from them, Iam quoting them not to offend anybody, it is just to drive home the point on mythology.
One king of south india used to assemble all his subjects in a stadium on the full moon day.The king will come in a black horse all dressed in black and will go around the stadium and his subjects have to worship him. The prince truly believed that he was the son of god and he made his people compulsorily worship him.
One other king of punjab or some other province used to give audience to his subjects in his darbar on his b'day .The Birthday darshan is special cause, he will come with a golden breast plate and just the golden breast plate. The subjects where made to worship his manhood as the ultimate shiva lingam.
Well we won’t hear about these kinds of incidents of our kings and queens from our own writers, we need a foreigner to write about it. The point here is when ruled by king you don’t have a choice, you have to do things how ever degrading they are, otherwise it is your head will roll.
What if a king who thought he was god and made his people worship him and made his poets write stories about him.If he is successful in brainwashing a whole generation of children’s to believe in that, then you got a whole set of beliefs and these beliefs, mythologies will be passed down to the later generations. Unquestioned the stories will be believed, improvised and made more divine. Later riots and wars might take place to save the sacredness of that lunatic king. Rama the king of ayodhya or krishna the king of dwaraka could also be an example of this... maybe, who knows.
This reminded me of a story in "Freedom at Midnight".Freedom at midnight was based on well researched materials and the diaries of lord mountbatten. The british govt which had so many articles on the lifestyle of the prince and kings of india, had to burn all those articles when the kings demanded it, before the british declare independence to india.So much of the information regarding the lifestyle of the kings were lost.But there were some of them that escaped the fire and lord mountbatten also had written many of the interesting things in his diaries. Here are some of the incidents from them, Iam quoting them not to offend anybody, it is just to drive home the point on mythology.
One king of south india used to assemble all his subjects in a stadium on the full moon day.The king will come in a black horse all dressed in black and will go around the stadium and his subjects have to worship him. The prince truly believed that he was the son of god and he made his people compulsorily worship him.
One other king of punjab or some other province used to give audience to his subjects in his darbar on his b'day .The Birthday darshan is special cause, he will come with a golden breast plate and just the golden breast plate. The subjects where made to worship his manhood as the ultimate shiva lingam.
Well we won’t hear about these kinds of incidents of our kings and queens from our own writers, we need a foreigner to write about it. The point here is when ruled by king you don’t have a choice, you have to do things how ever degrading they are, otherwise it is your head will roll.
What if a king who thought he was god and made his people worship him and made his poets write stories about him.If he is successful in brainwashing a whole generation of children’s to believe in that, then you got a whole set of beliefs and these beliefs, mythologies will be passed down to the later generations. Unquestioned the stories will be believed, improvised and made more divine. Later riots and wars might take place to save the sacredness of that lunatic king. Rama the king of ayodhya or krishna the king of dwaraka could also be an example of this... maybe, who knows.
Labels: blind belief, god, history, india, mythology
Comments:
<< Home
Going by your argument ,i can question the history of anybody and make it invalid ,because as Dan Brown says mostly History is written by winners.How sure are we that britishers did'nt write this with an ulterrior motive ? Their divide and rule policy is well known .
There is a some logical flaw in your assumption also .Its surprising that none of the kings before or after rama /Krishna did that .If you see Roman empire /Mughal Empire the degradation has been steady .
When we worship Rama or Krishna ,we just don't worship their physical image .It is their qualities which we worship - that was the original idea .Our brain needs image a form a person , a reference -Whether u have a picture or image or statue and do pooja or not is totally diffrent .. i do agree that we have degraded in forgetting the qualities behind that .If u read vivekananda works ,he would explained teh degradation and what we need to do for India .But that does'nt make Idol worship a mistake .We rectify our mistakes in worship ,thats it .
Also ur study of kings in olden ages is not acceptable .We are probably having our own images .The social situation at that time ,how they ruled needs to be taken care and teh psychology behind that needs to be analysed very well .They had a learned council of minsiters who were consulted for all deciscions.Unlike now ,where we have idiots as MPs .
There is a some logical flaw in your assumption also .Its surprising that none of the kings before or after rama /Krishna did that .If you see Roman empire /Mughal Empire the degradation has been steady .
When we worship Rama or Krishna ,we just don't worship their physical image .It is their qualities which we worship - that was the original idea .Our brain needs image a form a person , a reference -Whether u have a picture or image or statue and do pooja or not is totally diffrent .. i do agree that we have degraded in forgetting the qualities behind that .If u read vivekananda works ,he would explained teh degradation and what we need to do for India .But that does'nt make Idol worship a mistake .We rectify our mistakes in worship ,thats it .
Also ur study of kings in olden ages is not acceptable .We are probably having our own images .The social situation at that time ,how they ruled needs to be taken care and teh psychology behind that needs to be analysed very well .They had a learned council of minsiters who were consulted for all deciscions.Unlike now ,where we have idiots as MPs .
You got some nice points here Sen. Very different thoughts. Well, this has happened in all empires, I guess. All around the world. The kings were seen as Gods everywhere, as they wished.
Have you ever read about the european kings,queens,what about English Queen and King.
My grandmother used to tell me they were all forced sing about the glory of Queen Elizabeth in their class.
So lets cut the crap dont keep bringing some westerner point of view here okay.
Lets assume its all cock and bull story but they still teach some nice values. And if you read those books they haven't hidden anything esp Mahabaratha and Ramayana fault with whomever it is, was told as it is.
Just because few Megalomaniacs acted in way, is it fair to paint all of them in the same color.
There were many good kins, Sibhi Chakravarthy,Pari Vallal and the list goes on.
We had many original thinkers artist,poets,painters,and original thinkers throught the history. colonizers were mostly racist and supermasits who never bothered to understand or appreciate the culture rather exploited it and end the results there are people like you who thinks that way. If you go back to great Greek travellers and thinker their view of India was great so was other chinese travellers account also.
While I am not shying away the faults of our soceity , that doesnt mean we have to approach everything with negative tone. Remember for all the 'tribalism' of our religion, it has the universalism and bodly declared 'Truth is One, but wiseman call it by different name' unlike others who declare theirs the only way.
Because the essense of hinduism is universalism, to see God in everything both living and nonliving .They didnt worship sun or tree out of stupidity but understood the underlying cosmic force to which we are all part of. There are sufficient resources to verify these but your mind is closed and already opiniated so I dont know if you will bother to go through that.
"There was never a Salman Rushdie (author of Satanic Verses) in Hinduism and never will be there one. Mahatma Gandhi wrote, even atheists can call themselves as Hindus. That is very true. In fact the Charvaka philosophy or Nastika philosophy, (existed during the Vedic period) founded by Charvaka rejected the existence of God and considered religion as an aberration. Voltaire in Essay on Tolerance wrote: "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it." Hinduism is the symbol of what Voltaire wrote."
Whatever be the difference in ideas,opinion or belief one should be able to accept accomodate those things, thats what makes us what we are-better human beings.
if you care to read here is the link
http://www.boloji.com/hinduism/036.htm
My grandmother used to tell me they were all forced sing about the glory of Queen Elizabeth in their class.
So lets cut the crap dont keep bringing some westerner point of view here okay.
Lets assume its all cock and bull story but they still teach some nice values. And if you read those books they haven't hidden anything esp Mahabaratha and Ramayana fault with whomever it is, was told as it is.
Just because few Megalomaniacs acted in way, is it fair to paint all of them in the same color.
There were many good kins, Sibhi Chakravarthy,Pari Vallal and the list goes on.
We had many original thinkers artist,poets,painters,and original thinkers throught the history. colonizers were mostly racist and supermasits who never bothered to understand or appreciate the culture rather exploited it and end the results there are people like you who thinks that way. If you go back to great Greek travellers and thinker their view of India was great so was other chinese travellers account also.
While I am not shying away the faults of our soceity , that doesnt mean we have to approach everything with negative tone. Remember for all the 'tribalism' of our religion, it has the universalism and bodly declared 'Truth is One, but wiseman call it by different name' unlike others who declare theirs the only way.
Because the essense of hinduism is universalism, to see God in everything both living and nonliving .They didnt worship sun or tree out of stupidity but understood the underlying cosmic force to which we are all part of. There are sufficient resources to verify these but your mind is closed and already opiniated so I dont know if you will bother to go through that.
"There was never a Salman Rushdie (author of Satanic Verses) in Hinduism and never will be there one. Mahatma Gandhi wrote, even atheists can call themselves as Hindus. That is very true. In fact the Charvaka philosophy or Nastika philosophy, (existed during the Vedic period) founded by Charvaka rejected the existence of God and considered religion as an aberration. Voltaire in Essay on Tolerance wrote: "I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it." Hinduism is the symbol of what Voltaire wrote."
Whatever be the difference in ideas,opinion or belief one should be able to accept accomodate those things, thats what makes us what we are-better human beings.
if you care to read here is the link
http://www.boloji.com/hinduism/036.htm
guys,
First of all my examples where not to mention that every king who was born in india was a crazy megalomaniac.I just told one example and shared my perspective and doubt.
The quesiton is wheather things like this could have happened?.It is a question that should make you think on that line to proove or disporrve it and not talk what is going on in other religion or other countries.
ramki,
if you want to beleive that krishna lifted the mountains and the kings didn't exit.I can't say anything.It is ur perception.
There is no logical flaw, maybe those where the two who caught the imagination of a wider audience, the local rest became aiyannars and karuppanasami's??.who knows.
ramki.. u r just being positive, it does not matter whether the king has a council of great ministers or not,if the king himself is a lunatic.Well tuglaq was also a king.
jo. yep.
ganesh,
As i exmplained before it is a simple qustion.You have started talking about the glory days of india and its civilization than talk anything on how the mythological characters would have come into existence.
'They didnt worship sun or tree out of stupidity but understood the underlying cosmic force to which we are all part of.'
why didn't people workship a thorn tree?.would you workship the cosmic force of a tiger that is coming to attack you??.Talk to me ganesh.my mind is not closed.
Regarding reasons behind tree workship and animal workship.Well the old guys had reasons behind sati and caste system too.Does that make them right??.
First of all my examples where not to mention that every king who was born in india was a crazy megalomaniac.I just told one example and shared my perspective and doubt.
The quesiton is wheather things like this could have happened?.It is a question that should make you think on that line to proove or disporrve it and not talk what is going on in other religion or other countries.
ramki,
if you want to beleive that krishna lifted the mountains and the kings didn't exit.I can't say anything.It is ur perception.
There is no logical flaw, maybe those where the two who caught the imagination of a wider audience, the local rest became aiyannars and karuppanasami's??.who knows.
ramki.. u r just being positive, it does not matter whether the king has a council of great ministers or not,if the king himself is a lunatic.Well tuglaq was also a king.
jo. yep.
ganesh,
As i exmplained before it is a simple qustion.You have started talking about the glory days of india and its civilization than talk anything on how the mythological characters would have come into existence.
'They didnt worship sun or tree out of stupidity but understood the underlying cosmic force to which we are all part of.'
why didn't people workship a thorn tree?.would you workship the cosmic force of a tiger that is coming to attack you??.Talk to me ganesh.my mind is not closed.
Regarding reasons behind tree workship and animal workship.Well the old guys had reasons behind sati and caste system too.Does that make them right??.
sen ,
The ways of idol worship has changed with the social system.
Secondly sati has nothing to do with core hinduism .It is a social evil and has nothing to do with Hinduism.Manu Smriti is not HINDUISM !!
As far as i have understood ,idol worship is more of an attitude than reality .Its required for the mind which is taught to think everything as with 'form' .
regarding the tiger worshipping and worshipping Thorn tree : You are confusing between what is a method and what is an idea.A beginner's mind which has its own limitations attempts to think of god when it worships an favourable idol to its mind .Her Idol is a image to remember and worship the god .Thats it .You can choose not to belive in this,if u can't do that.
There is god in everything is the highest ideal.You can't literally translate to physical and psychological plane and pretend that tiger is god !!
The ways of idol worship has changed with the social system.
Secondly sati has nothing to do with core hinduism .It is a social evil and has nothing to do with Hinduism.Manu Smriti is not HINDUISM !!
As far as i have understood ,idol worship is more of an attitude than reality .Its required for the mind which is taught to think everything as with 'form' .
regarding the tiger worshipping and worshipping Thorn tree : You are confusing between what is a method and what is an idea.A beginner's mind which has its own limitations attempts to think of god when it worships an favourable idol to its mind .Her Idol is a image to remember and worship the god .Thats it .You can choose not to belive in this,if u can't do that.
There is god in everything is the highest ideal.You can't literally translate to physical and psychological plane and pretend that tiger is god !!
Ramki,
You are trying to tie the cow before the tajmahal.you can say anything and argu it as hinduism,as there is nothing defined about hinduism.It is pointless if the religion is not able to make peoples do what it wants it to do.sati or idol workship was/is done in the name of religion and god.
All kinds of books are written, but you want to take the ones you like and are leaving manu smrithi as not hinduism.who decides what is hinduism and what is not??.I think lt is the failure of the religion to give proper direction for everone.
'A beginner's mind which has its own limitations attempts to think of god when it worships an favourable idol to its mind'.
Millions and millions of people indulge in idol workship, even after 5000 years a religion has kept its followers as beginners again it is the fialure of the religion to propogate its inner meaning.
'You can choose not to belive in this,if u can't do that'.
Again nothing is defined, you can do what ever u want.
'There is god in everything is the highest ideal.You can't literally translate to physical and psychological plane and pretend that tiger is god !!'
what does this say?. that it is all in your imagination.That everything you read is fiction.Nothing is happening in reality, there is no fact to substantiate things.you have to imagine and dream.you can do it on a cindrella story or ramayana.
You are trying to tie the cow before the tajmahal.you can say anything and argu it as hinduism,as there is nothing defined about hinduism.It is pointless if the religion is not able to make peoples do what it wants it to do.sati or idol workship was/is done in the name of religion and god.
All kinds of books are written, but you want to take the ones you like and are leaving manu smrithi as not hinduism.who decides what is hinduism and what is not??.I think lt is the failure of the religion to give proper direction for everone.
'A beginner's mind which has its own limitations attempts to think of god when it worships an favourable idol to its mind'.
Millions and millions of people indulge in idol workship, even after 5000 years a religion has kept its followers as beginners again it is the fialure of the religion to propogate its inner meaning.
'You can choose not to belive in this,if u can't do that'.
Again nothing is defined, you can do what ever u want.
'There is god in everything is the highest ideal.You can't literally translate to physical and psychological plane and pretend that tiger is god !!'
what does this say?. that it is all in your imagination.That everything you read is fiction.Nothing is happening in reality, there is no fact to substantiate things.you have to imagine and dream.you can do it on a cindrella story or ramayana.
Sen,
Assume for a second that all you said is right i.e. Kings like that existed in India (or ONLY in India ;)) and Ramayana and Mahabharatha are total fables nothing close to reality.
Let us look at the root of the problem. Why does wrong exist ? -
Why did the people allow such kings to exist ? - Why did they not revolt against him ? - We can all enumerate thousands of reasons starting from fear-factor(what will happen to me) to selfish-factor (why do i care)
All kindsa 'wrong' people exist today ? - What have you (we) done about it ? We can write blogs, there were always renegade writers even in days of kings - so what ?
And remember - rights today may be wrongs of tomorrow and wrongs today may be rights of tomorrow
But, it is interesting to note we still tend to take foreigners word for truth :-)
Assume for a second that all you said is right i.e. Kings like that existed in India (or ONLY in India ;)) and Ramayana and Mahabharatha are total fables nothing close to reality.
Let us look at the root of the problem. Why does wrong exist ? -
Why did the people allow such kings to exist ? - Why did they not revolt against him ? - We can all enumerate thousands of reasons starting from fear-factor(what will happen to me) to selfish-factor (why do i care)
All kindsa 'wrong' people exist today ? - What have you (we) done about it ? We can write blogs, there were always renegade writers even in days of kings - so what ?
And remember - rights today may be wrongs of tomorrow and wrongs today may be rights of tomorrow
But, it is interesting to note we still tend to take foreigners word for truth :-)
arvind,
:).eppudra athu.you totally confused me.iam not taking foreigners words.Iam taking them because they only care to write about it and get a book published.
:).eppudra athu.you totally confused me.iam not taking foreigners words.Iam taking them because they only care to write about it and get a book published.
BLIND FAITH IS THE BIGGEST ABOMINABLE SIN !!!
I BELIEVE OUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE AND GOD DWELLS IN YOUR SOUL !
DEPENDS IF THE TEMPLE IS CLEANSED ENOUGH FOR GOD TO STAY AND RULE IN PEACE :)
WE ALL HAVE TO BIDE OUR TIMES TO SEE GOD AND KNOW HIM BY HIS REAL NAME...
WE CAN ALL MEET IN THE MIDDLE AND I DOUBT THAT WOULD HAPPEN WHILE WE ARE STILL ON PLANET EARTH....COS I BELIEVE IT IS A COURSE THAT WILL BE SERVED AFTER WE MOVE ONTO THE OTHER SIDE !!!!
REMEMBER GOD LIVES IN OUR HEARTS...SOMETIMES WE ARE TOO BLIND TO LOOK WITHIN !! WE PREFER TO SEARCH WITH A HURRICANE LAMP AT NIGHT AND WILLFULLY SHUT OUR EYES DURING THE DAY ESPECIALLY WHEN WE SEARCH GOD !!
STORIES AND MYTHS APART....WELL AGAIN YOU WOULDN'T BE LOOKING OUTSIDE IF YOU BELIEVED THE ANSWER MIGHT JUST LIE WITHIN !!! SO NEAR YET SO FAR ! RAW DEAL !!!
LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO PICK ON EACH OTHER AND HATE....WE ALL GET ONE LIFE....LETS LIVE AND LET LIVE AND DANCE AWAY AND NEVER LOOK BACK AS WE MOVE ONTO OUR NEXT PHASE.......THE OTHER SIDE !!!!
ID LOVE TO MEET EVERYONE THERE !!!
Post a Comment
I BELIEVE OUR BODY IS THE TEMPLE AND GOD DWELLS IN YOUR SOUL !
DEPENDS IF THE TEMPLE IS CLEANSED ENOUGH FOR GOD TO STAY AND RULE IN PEACE :)
WE ALL HAVE TO BIDE OUR TIMES TO SEE GOD AND KNOW HIM BY HIS REAL NAME...
WE CAN ALL MEET IN THE MIDDLE AND I DOUBT THAT WOULD HAPPEN WHILE WE ARE STILL ON PLANET EARTH....COS I BELIEVE IT IS A COURSE THAT WILL BE SERVED AFTER WE MOVE ONTO THE OTHER SIDE !!!!
REMEMBER GOD LIVES IN OUR HEARTS...SOMETIMES WE ARE TOO BLIND TO LOOK WITHIN !! WE PREFER TO SEARCH WITH A HURRICANE LAMP AT NIGHT AND WILLFULLY SHUT OUR EYES DURING THE DAY ESPECIALLY WHEN WE SEARCH GOD !!
STORIES AND MYTHS APART....WELL AGAIN YOU WOULDN'T BE LOOKING OUTSIDE IF YOU BELIEVED THE ANSWER MIGHT JUST LIE WITHIN !!! SO NEAR YET SO FAR ! RAW DEAL !!!
LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO PICK ON EACH OTHER AND HATE....WE ALL GET ONE LIFE....LETS LIVE AND LET LIVE AND DANCE AWAY AND NEVER LOOK BACK AS WE MOVE ONTO OUR NEXT PHASE.......THE OTHER SIDE !!!!
ID LOVE TO MEET EVERYONE THERE !!!
<< Home
