Wednesday, July 13, 2005
sssshhhhhhh !!!! Its about caste
Why is caste a taboo topic??.From my experiences, lot of people tend to push this topic under the carpet rather than deal with it.why is it?.Is it because this is a sensitive issue which might hurt someone feeling.Or is it cause the caste fanatics have succeded in installing a fear in our mind.
From what i know, from the many people i talked, most of the them seem to agree that it is primitive and outdated.But we all seem not to discuss about it.I know that in the real world, some political parties have been using violence as a means to stop anyone opposing the views of their leaders.These kind of fanatism is directly and indirectly affecting the flow of free thoughts and fair discussions.But atleast these things shouldn't affect us having a civilised discussion on the internet.
How can we say that we are not for caste system and we dont like it,if we are not even ready to freely talk about it?.Shouldn't we be discussing it more,without any inhibitions if we were are out of them??.I think we should discuss it.Discuss it more, discuss it within the limits of civility and discuss it to arrive at solutions.
Do we still need the caste system?
If yes why?
If not.what should be do to make society without a caste system?
From what i know, from the many people i talked, most of the them seem to agree that it is primitive and outdated.But we all seem not to discuss about it.I know that in the real world, some political parties have been using violence as a means to stop anyone opposing the views of their leaders.These kind of fanatism is directly and indirectly affecting the flow of free thoughts and fair discussions.But atleast these things shouldn't affect us having a civilised discussion on the internet.
How can we say that we are not for caste system and we dont like it,if we are not even ready to freely talk about it?.Shouldn't we be discussing it more,without any inhibitions if we were are out of them??.I think we should discuss it.Discuss it more, discuss it within the limits of civility and discuss it to arrive at solutions.
Do we still need the caste system?
If yes why?
If not.what should be do to make society without a caste system?
Comments:
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Excellent Topic !!!
My view points are these ...
1.Caste system will always be there ,whether you want it or not .We can live only in groups and not as isolated induviduals .But having said that ,i would also define what is a caste .Caste is entirely based on one's profession and not by birth or so .We can think of like SOftware professionals ,ARtists ,Craftsman ,workers etc - A group which does similar things .This is a utopian view of seeing what is a caste .
2.Practically our society adopted the caste system before long years .History book says that it was based only on profession and not on birth .They defined the rules that needs to be followed by each caste to keep the society moving forward ,however i don't think they restricted people from moving to different castes.History also says that those in the caste of Brahmins became corrupt and started deviating from their path and started having parochial views on caste and restricted all knowledge only to selceted people .As a result the other castes which are economically poor were oppressed ,either due to lack of money or due to this caste inequalities .
3.Our Government made many attempts to bring the downtrodden up - One major measure was the quota system .This system has to be backed up by a strong education policy,infrastructure and a deadline to remove the quota system .But unfortunately instead of teaching how to catch the fish ,they gave the fish - As a result now ,the quota system is only partially successfull .A particular caste like Nadar or Devar which is socially and ecnomically superior is still considered as a Backward caste or MBC which is not acceptable .Why would two students who get same marks and ecnomically equal will have different ways of selection process ?
4.But coming to a particular question of throwing caste away - Why is that this question is asked only at Brahmins ( It made sense before as there doing all kinds of non sense things - I have seen in my own eyes ) ?Iam not sure who is involved in killing the innocent dalits and ST people in SOuth Tamil Nadu ! I will support all those dailt groups ,they need education and good infrastcuture .
In San Jose , a big Koundar community meetings happen and it is restricted only to them .I have a rich expereince of living with Thevars in my madurai city and mingling with them .Their contribution to INA is phenomenal . But nobody can dare to ask them such a question of throwing their caste away .So thsi question has to be asked to every body .
Why is that we learned people still opt for quota system ? Why can't some communities which feel they have risen go to government and tell them that they are no longer oppressed and they can come in OC itself ! Is it fear of competing or is it because it has made things easy for them ?
Iam not clear whether to say having caste is wrong or not - BUt caste differences has to go away -there is no second opinion on that .One and only good education and association can do that .Some of my friends have started an organization called MOTHER ,headed by santhana Goplan .He has resigned his TCS job and started lot of free tuition centers in and around chennai .We need such people ,such aim ,such planning and above all such sacrifice .Belive me ,in my short expereince of 6 months of teaching our poor students ,the only way they can rise is teaching them one to one +provdiing good infratsurcture and environment + quota system ( if it is reasonable )
My view points are these ...
1.Caste system will always be there ,whether you want it or not .We can live only in groups and not as isolated induviduals .But having said that ,i would also define what is a caste .Caste is entirely based on one's profession and not by birth or so .We can think of like SOftware professionals ,ARtists ,Craftsman ,workers etc - A group which does similar things .This is a utopian view of seeing what is a caste .
2.Practically our society adopted the caste system before long years .History book says that it was based only on profession and not on birth .They defined the rules that needs to be followed by each caste to keep the society moving forward ,however i don't think they restricted people from moving to different castes.History also says that those in the caste of Brahmins became corrupt and started deviating from their path and started having parochial views on caste and restricted all knowledge only to selceted people .As a result the other castes which are economically poor were oppressed ,either due to lack of money or due to this caste inequalities .
3.Our Government made many attempts to bring the downtrodden up - One major measure was the quota system .This system has to be backed up by a strong education policy,infrastructure and a deadline to remove the quota system .But unfortunately instead of teaching how to catch the fish ,they gave the fish - As a result now ,the quota system is only partially successfull .A particular caste like Nadar or Devar which is socially and ecnomically superior is still considered as a Backward caste or MBC which is not acceptable .Why would two students who get same marks and ecnomically equal will have different ways of selection process ?
4.But coming to a particular question of throwing caste away - Why is that this question is asked only at Brahmins ( It made sense before as there doing all kinds of non sense things - I have seen in my own eyes ) ?Iam not sure who is involved in killing the innocent dalits and ST people in SOuth Tamil Nadu ! I will support all those dailt groups ,they need education and good infrastcuture .
In San Jose , a big Koundar community meetings happen and it is restricted only to them .I have a rich expereince of living with Thevars in my madurai city and mingling with them .Their contribution to INA is phenomenal . But nobody can dare to ask them such a question of throwing their caste away .So thsi question has to be asked to every body .
Why is that we learned people still opt for quota system ? Why can't some communities which feel they have risen go to government and tell them that they are no longer oppressed and they can come in OC itself ! Is it fear of competing or is it because it has made things easy for them ?
Iam not clear whether to say having caste is wrong or not - BUt caste differences has to go away -there is no second opinion on that .One and only good education and association can do that .Some of my friends have started an organization called MOTHER ,headed by santhana Goplan .He has resigned his TCS job and started lot of free tuition centers in and around chennai .We need such people ,such aim ,such planning and above all such sacrifice .Belive me ,in my short expereince of 6 months of teaching our poor students ,the only way they can rise is teaching them one to one +provdiing good infratsurcture and environment + quota system ( if it is reasonable )
Mumbai Ramki
Excellent thoughts.
Senthil nice one.
Yes the question should be asked to everyone. The reservation should be based on economic standards not by caste as well know its been exploited big time. Even Sri Ambekhar wanted to do away with reservation after 50yrs.
Politicians will always use either caste or religion to get votes. While doing lip service to do away with castes.
Excellent thoughts.
Senthil nice one.
Yes the question should be asked to everyone. The reservation should be based on economic standards not by caste as well know its been exploited big time. Even Sri Ambekhar wanted to do away with reservation after 50yrs.
Politicians will always use either caste or religion to get votes. While doing lip service to do away with castes.
ramki,
wow big one.think you have written the comment bigger than the post itself.let me read it carefully first.
wow big one.think you have written the comment bigger than the post itself.let me read it carefully first.
senthil, I had captured my thoughts on origin of class in http://sweetkaramcoffee.blogspot.com/2005/03/origins-of-class.html
Let me read mumbai ramki's comment before commenting further
Let me read mumbai ramki's comment before commenting further
Ramki:
Since you have taken the onus and commented so long, I took the pains to read through it carefully.
We are trying to analyze if caste is required here not about why brahmins in the society are targeted. Infact the names that we give to ourselves, brahmins, goundars, thevars, blah blah blah!! do we need them anymore?
Your argument is just skimming the surface you are not trying to understand senthils post. He is talking about eradicating these very brahmin, gounder, thevar, blah blah blah!! identities. Why should you identify yourself by your caste? You like it or not, caste is no longer based on ones profession.You are talking about ancient fuedelistic societies. DO YOU JUSTIFY US STILL FOLLOWING THAT STUPIDITY? that is the question raised here, all you have done here is to beat around the bush. Talk about the issues of caste system and what it does to the society. Dont just talk around it and say yeah! we can survive. That is not progressive thinking dude!
Since you have taken the onus and commented so long, I took the pains to read through it carefully.
We are trying to analyze if caste is required here not about why brahmins in the society are targeted. Infact the names that we give to ourselves, brahmins, goundars, thevars, blah blah blah!! do we need them anymore?
Your argument is just skimming the surface you are not trying to understand senthils post. He is talking about eradicating these very brahmin, gounder, thevar, blah blah blah!! identities. Why should you identify yourself by your caste? You like it or not, caste is no longer based on ones profession.You are talking about ancient fuedelistic societies. DO YOU JUSTIFY US STILL FOLLOWING THAT STUPIDITY? that is the question raised here, all you have done here is to beat around the bush. Talk about the issues of caste system and what it does to the society. Dont just talk around it and say yeah! we can survive. That is not progressive thinking dude!
Senthil:
Now that I have let my steam out! Let me give you some of my views
1. Caste system is a primitive system no longer required for the current generation
2. We need more rational thinking and cooperative efforts and that will not come if the caste system lingers
3. I am not talking about the so called "moderates" who still call themselves Iyers or thevars or mudalaiyars or whatever, I am talking about the separatists.
4. The people of India should recognize that caste is the biggest issue that divides them and prevents them from developing as a country
5. MARRYING PEOPLE OF THE SAME CASTE IS NOT A GOOD PRACTICE SCIENTIFICALLY, INBREEDING WILL LEAD TO AN INCREASE IN GENETIC DISEASES AND ENTIRE POPULATIONS WILL BE WIPED OUT, THEREFORE ERADICATION OF THE CASTE SYSTEM HAS A VERY SCIENTIFIC VIABLE REASON!
Now that I have let my steam out! Let me give you some of my views
1. Caste system is a primitive system no longer required for the current generation
2. We need more rational thinking and cooperative efforts and that will not come if the caste system lingers
3. I am not talking about the so called "moderates" who still call themselves Iyers or thevars or mudalaiyars or whatever, I am talking about the separatists.
4. The people of India should recognize that caste is the biggest issue that divides them and prevents them from developing as a country
5. MARRYING PEOPLE OF THE SAME CASTE IS NOT A GOOD PRACTICE SCIENTIFICALLY, INBREEDING WILL LEAD TO AN INCREASE IN GENETIC DISEASES AND ENTIRE POPULATIONS WILL BE WIPED OUT, THEREFORE ERADICATION OF THE CASTE SYSTEM HAS A VERY SCIENTIFIC VIABLE REASON!
Senthil:
THE ANSWER TO YOUR LAST QUESTION!
1. This issue should be discussed more openly.
2. The differences between the people of various castes should be sorted out, CIVIC EDUCATION SHOULD HELP.
3. PROMOTE SCIENTIFIC THINKING AMONGST CHILDREN IN SCHOOL, CATCH THEM WHEN THEY ARE YOUNG AND BEFORE THEY ARE BRAIN WASHED INTO BECOMING FANATICALLY CASTE ORIENTED.THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ONE CAN DO TO ERADICATE CASTE, COZ WE CANNOT CONVERT THE OLDIES, THEY WILL KEEP CRYING FOR THEIR CASTES, CATCH THE YOUNGLINGS AND MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND THE EVILS!
THE ANSWER TO YOUR LAST QUESTION!
1. This issue should be discussed more openly.
2. The differences between the people of various castes should be sorted out, CIVIC EDUCATION SHOULD HELP.
3. PROMOTE SCIENTIFIC THINKING AMONGST CHILDREN IN SCHOOL, CATCH THEM WHEN THEY ARE YOUNG AND BEFORE THEY ARE BRAIN WASHED INTO BECOMING FANATICALLY CASTE ORIENTED.THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ONE CAN DO TO ERADICATE CASTE, COZ WE CANNOT CONVERT THE OLDIES, THEY WILL KEEP CRYING FOR THEIR CASTES, CATCH THE YOUNGLINGS AND MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND THE EVILS!
senthil, caste system in the prescribed form mite lose its relevance in cities. things like the two glass system wont be openly practises. inside ones home it will be very evident, there will be those who will hold ont to it, even in cities, they will follow it to the core,
secondly in villages ppl r classififed and alloted living areas based on their caste, this will take a long time to change, even in peoples minds
in TN not having any deep religious divisions, politicians have found caste a useful tool to divide people with and making the divisions even deeper.
subconsciously we all follow the caste system, how many of us wud be willing to get married outside out community? a marriage between a iyer\iyengar and a dalit is something ive never heard of, and even the most stauch opposers of the system still choose to get married within their community. there are a people whove broken this rule effiectively and have set a trend, but the majority still prefer their community. the most liberal they r is gettin married to another person from equal or similar stangings on the heirarchy of castes.
how can we dismantle a structure that has survived for nearly 1000 years in 50 years?
secondly in villages ppl r classififed and alloted living areas based on their caste, this will take a long time to change, even in peoples minds
in TN not having any deep religious divisions, politicians have found caste a useful tool to divide people with and making the divisions even deeper.
subconsciously we all follow the caste system, how many of us wud be willing to get married outside out community? a marriage between a iyer\iyengar and a dalit is something ive never heard of, and even the most stauch opposers of the system still choose to get married within their community. there are a people whove broken this rule effiectively and have set a trend, but the majority still prefer their community. the most liberal they r is gettin married to another person from equal or similar stangings on the heirarchy of castes.
how can we dismantle a structure that has survived for nearly 1000 years in 50 years?
i second Mumbai ramki's thoughts on other communties sticking to their castes.
I've witnessed this when that movie "Bharathi Kannama" was released in SOuth Tamil Nadu, there was this poster which wanted Director Cheran to be hanged bcos he shows an upper caste, lower caste love.
I did not see that movie but that poster shocked me. It still does.
maybe its bcos people still find enormous pride in being idenfied to a particular class.
I've witnessed this when that movie "Bharathi Kannama" was released in SOuth Tamil Nadu, there was this poster which wanted Director Cheran to be hanged bcos he shows an upper caste, lower caste love.
I did not see that movie but that poster shocked me. It still does.
maybe its bcos people still find enormous pride in being idenfied to a particular class.
ramki,
Think robbie just said what i wanted to say.Yes, reservation is a topic that should be discussed. Maybe seperately.But here my question is about the fundamental structure itself.
The second point that you talked.About the reason behind why the caste system came into existence is fine.But that came into place when there was no other better system and maybe it was right for that time period.But given today's circumsantces is it necessary??
And i didn't target the question on any particular community it is for everybody.
"Iam not clear whether to say having caste is wrong or not - But caste differences has to go away -there is no second opinion on that."
ramki this is a little confusing statement.Is it a Yes or a No??.
Ganesh,
As i said before.The question is above the system itself.Are u comfortable in this system.Do u feel a need for a change?.If yes what kind of a change??
robbie,
Agree with all u said.
1)"Catch them young" is a good point.
Thinking about that i wish there were more lessons in the school which talks about unity of religion and caste.
2)Similarly there is a point that comes in the movie mudhalvan where arjun says the govt must deal with caste as OC's BC's MBC's & SC/ST's and not as individual castes.Think that is a good starter.The govt should join the various related communities under one name.like A mudhaliar, B mudhaliar and C mudhaliar into just as mudhaliars.And slowly decrease the groupings.
Think robbie just said what i wanted to say.Yes, reservation is a topic that should be discussed. Maybe seperately.But here my question is about the fundamental structure itself.
The second point that you talked.About the reason behind why the caste system came into existence is fine.But that came into place when there was no other better system and maybe it was right for that time period.But given today's circumsantces is it necessary??
And i didn't target the question on any particular community it is for everybody.
"Iam not clear whether to say having caste is wrong or not - But caste differences has to go away -there is no second opinion on that."
ramki this is a little confusing statement.Is it a Yes or a No??.
Ganesh,
As i said before.The question is above the system itself.Are u comfortable in this system.Do u feel a need for a change?.If yes what kind of a change??
robbie,
Agree with all u said.
1)"Catch them young" is a good point.
Thinking about that i wish there were more lessons in the school which talks about unity of religion and caste.
2)Similarly there is a point that comes in the movie mudhalvan where arjun says the govt must deal with caste as OC's BC's MBC's & SC/ST's and not as individual castes.Think that is a good starter.The govt should join the various related communities under one name.like A mudhaliar, B mudhaliar and C mudhaliar into just as mudhaliars.And slowly decrease the groupings.
Robbie ,
First of all ,please look at Senthil's post carefully!
How can we say that we are not for caste system and we dont like it,if we are not even ready to freely talk about it?.Shouldn't we be discussing it more,without any inhibitions if we were are out of them??.I think we should discuss it.Discuss it more, discuss it within the limits of civility and discuss it to arrive at solutions.
Do we still need the caste system?
If yes why?
If not.what should be do to make society without a caste system?
To eradicate something ,i belive you need to understand them why it came in the first place and what effects it had in our society in the first place ,positive and negative .Just closing the eyes blindly and bashing them ,i would leave it to DK .
I have a point in mentioning what has happened with respect to the government measures to reduce the caste differences - How is it irrelevant ?Is the method not important as the aim ?Iam personally affected by this quota system ,by the so called method .No Problem can be looked in isolation .
OK - i will specify my answer in ur contect .
1.I will not throw away my relationship with brahmin practices .All of them have brought good to me .When i say practices ,i refer only to the spiritual practices and not anything .If i have good knowledge of all the spiritual practices ,i will definetely go ahead and teach everybody what i know - Like bharathiyaar did by investing sacred thread to everybody .But i will not KILL whatever practices iam following .I have personally taught gayatri mantra to some other people too ..I don't think anything but spirituality can unite all people - The knowledge that everybody is that 'self' can only unite people .The same orthodox brahmins who tend to observe all those touch-me -not ,work unitedly with all castes in of case of temple activities ( to a reasonable extent ,though not perfect or near perfect)
2.Scientific thinking alone will not to do any good to promote agood society .We need a rich education with good spiritual ,scientific knowledge and very good teachers .My opinion is that education is always caught and taught .YOu have to have good teachers for that .I personally prefer ancient gurukul systems ,but it is not feasible now adays .
First of all ,please look at Senthil's post carefully!
How can we say that we are not for caste system and we dont like it,if we are not even ready to freely talk about it?.Shouldn't we be discussing it more,without any inhibitions if we were are out of them??.I think we should discuss it.Discuss it more, discuss it within the limits of civility and discuss it to arrive at solutions.
Do we still need the caste system?
If yes why?
If not.what should be do to make society without a caste system?
To eradicate something ,i belive you need to understand them why it came in the first place and what effects it had in our society in the first place ,positive and negative .Just closing the eyes blindly and bashing them ,i would leave it to DK .
I have a point in mentioning what has happened with respect to the government measures to reduce the caste differences - How is it irrelevant ?Is the method not important as the aim ?Iam personally affected by this quota system ,by the so called method .No Problem can be looked in isolation .
OK - i will specify my answer in ur contect .
1.I will not throw away my relationship with brahmin practices .All of them have brought good to me .When i say practices ,i refer only to the spiritual practices and not anything .If i have good knowledge of all the spiritual practices ,i will definetely go ahead and teach everybody what i know - Like bharathiyaar did by investing sacred thread to everybody .But i will not KILL whatever practices iam following .I have personally taught gayatri mantra to some other people too ..I don't think anything but spirituality can unite all people - The knowledge that everybody is that 'self' can only unite people .The same orthodox brahmins who tend to observe all those touch-me -not ,work unitedly with all castes in of case of temple activities ( to a reasonable extent ,though not perfect or near perfect)
2.Scientific thinking alone will not to do any good to promote agood society .We need a rich education with good spiritual ,scientific knowledge and very good teachers .My opinion is that education is always caught and taught .YOu have to have good teachers for that .I personally prefer ancient gurukul systems ,but it is not feasible now adays .
Ramki: SO HOW DO YOU PLAN TO GET RID OF THE SO CALLED QUOTA SYSTEM WITHOUT GETTING RID OF THE CASTES?
THIS IS NOT A QUESTION OF YOU DISSOCIATING YOURSELF FROM YOUR BRAHMINICAL PRACTICES,IT IS FROM YOU AGREEING TO SHUN FROM USING THE TERM BRAHMIN TO DESCRIBE YOURSELF WHEN YOU POST ADS IN THE NEWSPAPER FOR A BRIDE.YOU ALWAYS KEEP REFERING TO THE "ANCIENT GURUKUL SYSTEMS" THE ANCIENT PRACTICES OF GAYATRI MANTRA, THE ANCIENT BELIEFS! JEEZ! GIVE ME A BREAK AND COME TO THE PRESENT WORLD. IF YOU FEEL THAT THE QUOTA SYSTEM IS EVIL,THAT EVIL IS ONLY BECAUSE OF YOUR STAUNCH REFUSAL TO STOP IDENTIFYING YOURSELF BY YOUR CASTE. TRY CHANGING THAT FIRST,THEN YOU WILL UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY HERE.I AM NOT QUESTIONING YOUR RIGHT TO TEACH SOMEONE THE GAYATRI MANTRA, I AM JUST QUESTIONING YOUR LOGIC OF KEEPING YOUR IDENTITY INTACT AND ALSO COMMENTING AGAINST IT.YOU ARE EITHER FOR IT OR AGAINST IT THERE IS NO MIDDLE LINE HERE. SCIENTIFIC THINKING ALONE CANNOT MAKE EVERYTHING HAPPEN, TO AN EXTENT IT IS COMMON SENSE, HOW MANY PEOPLE WILL UNDERSTAND YOUR CONCEPTS OF SPIRITUALITY? TEACH THEM SCIENCE AND COMMON SENSE WILL FOLLOW AND EVEN SPIRITUALITY MIGHT BECOME EASIER TO UNDERSTAND.
THIS IS NOT A QUESTION OF YOU DISSOCIATING YOURSELF FROM YOUR BRAHMINICAL PRACTICES,IT IS FROM YOU AGREEING TO SHUN FROM USING THE TERM BRAHMIN TO DESCRIBE YOURSELF WHEN YOU POST ADS IN THE NEWSPAPER FOR A BRIDE.YOU ALWAYS KEEP REFERING TO THE "ANCIENT GURUKUL SYSTEMS" THE ANCIENT PRACTICES OF GAYATRI MANTRA, THE ANCIENT BELIEFS! JEEZ! GIVE ME A BREAK AND COME TO THE PRESENT WORLD. IF YOU FEEL THAT THE QUOTA SYSTEM IS EVIL,THAT EVIL IS ONLY BECAUSE OF YOUR STAUNCH REFUSAL TO STOP IDENTIFYING YOURSELF BY YOUR CASTE. TRY CHANGING THAT FIRST,THEN YOU WILL UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY HERE.I AM NOT QUESTIONING YOUR RIGHT TO TEACH SOMEONE THE GAYATRI MANTRA, I AM JUST QUESTIONING YOUR LOGIC OF KEEPING YOUR IDENTITY INTACT AND ALSO COMMENTING AGAINST IT.YOU ARE EITHER FOR IT OR AGAINST IT THERE IS NO MIDDLE LINE HERE. SCIENTIFIC THINKING ALONE CANNOT MAKE EVERYTHING HAPPEN, TO AN EXTENT IT IS COMMON SENSE, HOW MANY PEOPLE WILL UNDERSTAND YOUR CONCEPTS OF SPIRITUALITY? TEACH THEM SCIENCE AND COMMON SENSE WILL FOLLOW AND EVEN SPIRITUALITY MIGHT BECOME EASIER TO UNDERSTAND.
Ramki:
I still do not understand why such spiritual principled people like you feel that science is not the solution. We as human beings tend to seek the logic behind every single thing we do be it brushing your teeth in the morning or the food we eat or the type of dress we wear. Everything is done with logic incorporated into it,even including the blogs we write. Why is it that when it comes to religion or caste we tend to discard the same logic and follow foolish rituals and convince ourself that it helps us? Science is the key to development (ask the US how much they gained from German scientists). You are able to give us your opinion on this blog just because of science. It is because of science that you and I live longer orelse we might have died much earlier (do you know how much science has helped in improving the life span of human beings?) I agree that science can be used negatively, but the positive effects of science is far reaching. Teach someone to be scientific and they will learn to reason and apply their common sense. They will realize the evils of their system automatically by the power of analysis handed over to them by science. It is a shame that I have to sit here writing about scientific education and that too to a person who has taught in the past.
I still do not understand why such spiritual principled people like you feel that science is not the solution. We as human beings tend to seek the logic behind every single thing we do be it brushing your teeth in the morning or the food we eat or the type of dress we wear. Everything is done with logic incorporated into it,even including the blogs we write. Why is it that when it comes to religion or caste we tend to discard the same logic and follow foolish rituals and convince ourself that it helps us? Science is the key to development (ask the US how much they gained from German scientists). You are able to give us your opinion on this blog just because of science. It is because of science that you and I live longer orelse we might have died much earlier (do you know how much science has helped in improving the life span of human beings?) I agree that science can be used negatively, but the positive effects of science is far reaching. Teach someone to be scientific and they will learn to reason and apply their common sense. They will realize the evils of their system automatically by the power of analysis handed over to them by science. It is a shame that I have to sit here writing about scientific education and that too to a person who has taught in the past.
SENTHIL:
I Set up an Email like you suggested. Its dcblogomaniacs.gmail.com
Give me a call if you get time I forgot your phone number dude! haha I thought I will remember it, but forgot it the very next day.
I Set up an Email like you suggested. Its dcblogomaniacs.gmail.com
Give me a call if you get time I forgot your phone number dude! haha I thought I will remember it, but forgot it the very next day.
Caste is present in two flavors. Discrimination and differentiation. The first is outright criminal and the second is sutle and can easily be removed. Social reforms and changes take a long time to take effect. There are no magical answers. People tend to marriage within their caste if it is an arranged marriage since it is comfortable (aunts, unclesm nephews etc). Only silver lining is many, atleast from cities are open to inter-caste marriages. May be another 50 years...it is worth the wait if it vanishes.
senthil said...
oops lot of post...
et me try to answer them one by one.
hiva,
very philosophical.All going above the head.Its is like robbie explaining the science of my thirst.I have to read it carefully once again.
srivatsan & prabhu i have blog rolled you guys.
Srivatsan,
Subconsciously we all follow the caste system.well said.But can we get it off is the question.when the 1000 yr old practise is losing its relevance in the cities in 50 yrs.I feel if we properly tackle the problem, we might be able to bring the same change in villages also.
Prabhu karthick,
little confused here.Is that a yes or a no.Are saying that the structure should be there ??.Let me assume that you say the structure should be there.
Why did you get shocked after seeing the poster.Isn't it a part of the system that u want??.
You have raised a nice point, the pride.when i was talking with vasu on this topic.he mentioned that "a strong identity is nothing wrong and one need not erase it".We should be able to live with each other peacefully with our own identities.Your posts makes me think what if the strong identity of one particular community is its violence??.
oops lot of post...
et me try to answer them one by one.
hiva,
very philosophical.All going above the head.Its is like robbie explaining the science of my thirst.I have to read it carefully once again.
srivatsan & prabhu i have blog rolled you guys.
Srivatsan,
Subconsciously we all follow the caste system.well said.But can we get it off is the question.when the 1000 yr old practise is losing its relevance in the cities in 50 yrs.I feel if we properly tackle the problem, we might be able to bring the same change in villages also.
Prabhu karthick,
little confused here.Is that a yes or a no.Are saying that the structure should be there ??.Let me assume that you say the structure should be there.
Why did you get shocked after seeing the poster.Isn't it a part of the system that u want??.
You have raised a nice point, the pride.when i was talking with vasu on this topic.he mentioned that "a strong identity is nothing wrong and one need not erase it".We should be able to live with each other peacefully with our own identities.Your posts makes me think what if the strong identity of one particular community is its violence??.
ramki,
some thoughts on your 1) point.
Iam a big fan of bharathiyar.but one question has been nagging me for a while.Why did he convert that lower caste guy into a brahmin?.Why didn't he himself convert to the caste of the other guy??.
The same thing holds for you also. Teaching gayathri mantra to some one indirectly means that 'what iam doing is the right thing, come join me'.you are imparting something that you think is the right one on a person who does not have any clue about it.I see a parallel between this and the christian missionaries who go around preaching that only jesus is the only god and what he said is the truth.
2)This is a very good point. Unfortunatley not all communities impart spirualities the same way.Some communities identities and practises are more spiritual than the other.I think this is a fundamental flaw in hinduism itself.
But on an another angle when everybody is educated and knowledgeable i think we dont need the help of spirituality.Gurukul's cmon ramki..... :).
guys its late, gonna go to bed.will see where this discussin is heading tommorrow.
robbie will email you my number tommmorrow.we will talk tomm.
some thoughts on your 1) point.
Iam a big fan of bharathiyar.but one question has been nagging me for a while.Why did he convert that lower caste guy into a brahmin?.Why didn't he himself convert to the caste of the other guy??.
The same thing holds for you also. Teaching gayathri mantra to some one indirectly means that 'what iam doing is the right thing, come join me'.you are imparting something that you think is the right one on a person who does not have any clue about it.I see a parallel between this and the christian missionaries who go around preaching that only jesus is the only god and what he said is the truth.
2)This is a very good point. Unfortunatley not all communities impart spirualities the same way.Some communities identities and practises are more spiritual than the other.I think this is a fundamental flaw in hinduism itself.
But on an another angle when everybody is educated and knowledgeable i think we dont need the help of spirituality.Gurukul's cmon ramki..... :).
guys its late, gonna go to bed.will see where this discussin is heading tommorrow.
robbie will email you my number tommmorrow.we will talk tomm.
fellas -
stay tuned for a new blog about this very subject.
you cannot talk about caste and not about reservations. they are not only strongly intertwined but are most relevant in todays world.
i think there is a broad consensus that caste as we have known it in the past has no meaning in the modern world. you will be hard pressed to find anyone defending the old scheme of brhmins, kshatriyas etc.
what is important is that in TN; within seconds - a discussion of caste disintegrates into brahmin bashing. so we cannot have a sane discussion about other and more pressing issues.
can we talk about why the policcally powerful thevars who today have 93 MLAs (40%) are backward ?
can we talk about why mudaliars who are traditionally elite, landed and educated are backward ?. in fact after 60+ years of reservation - they now want to be classified as most backward. there is a new political party for this very purpose.
can we talk about why tn government yesterday distributed bicycles to *all* children of government schools at a cost of 105.5 crore, except to brahmins. can u imagine the impact of this on a poor brahmin kid. exactly how much more would it have cost to extend this scheme to *all* kids in government schools.
can we talk about how rich kids belonging to castes that have a dubious claim to past oppression - are enjoying the benefits of positive discrimination.
how about a discussion of why there is no major commercial enterprise owned by a dalit in tn today.
how about naming a dalit hero, heroine, director in the all important film world.
i suspect this issue is far too complex and depressing. how about we talk about how good the strawberry shortcake is at sweet chariot. that ought to be fun.
stay tuned for a new blog about this very subject.
you cannot talk about caste and not about reservations. they are not only strongly intertwined but are most relevant in todays world.
i think there is a broad consensus that caste as we have known it in the past has no meaning in the modern world. you will be hard pressed to find anyone defending the old scheme of brhmins, kshatriyas etc.
what is important is that in TN; within seconds - a discussion of caste disintegrates into brahmin bashing. so we cannot have a sane discussion about other and more pressing issues.
can we talk about why the policcally powerful thevars who today have 93 MLAs (40%) are backward ?
can we talk about why mudaliars who are traditionally elite, landed and educated are backward ?. in fact after 60+ years of reservation - they now want to be classified as most backward. there is a new political party for this very purpose.
can we talk about why tn government yesterday distributed bicycles to *all* children of government schools at a cost of 105.5 crore, except to brahmins. can u imagine the impact of this on a poor brahmin kid. exactly how much more would it have cost to extend this scheme to *all* kids in government schools.
can we talk about how rich kids belonging to castes that have a dubious claim to past oppression - are enjoying the benefits of positive discrimination.
how about a discussion of why there is no major commercial enterprise owned by a dalit in tn today.
how about naming a dalit hero, heroine, director in the all important film world.
i suspect this issue is far too complex and depressing. how about we talk about how good the strawberry shortcake is at sweet chariot. that ought to be fun.
# posted by 
: 9:49 PM
: 9:49 PM
ramki,
my previous post was just my view.no offenc meant.
aravind,
Social reforms and changes take a long time to take effect.'Might change in the future'.Well said.I agree there is nothing that can change it in a jiffy.But how are we going to change in the next 50 yrs.what is going t be different then. Increase in Literacy/knowledge percentage??. Social acceptance??.So can we say these things as crucial for the society to dismantle the caste structure??
Anonymous,
"stay tuned for a new blog about this very subject".
where should we stay tuned.WHO ARE YOU??.
See all you wrote was the current situation.The question is, how to change it for better.Do you have any solutions??
my previous post was just my view.no offenc meant.
aravind,
Social reforms and changes take a long time to take effect.'Might change in the future'.Well said.I agree there is nothing that can change it in a jiffy.But how are we going to change in the next 50 yrs.what is going t be different then. Increase in Literacy/knowledge percentage??. Social acceptance??.So can we say these things as crucial for the society to dismantle the caste structure??
Anonymous,
"stay tuned for a new blog about this very subject".
where should we stay tuned.WHO ARE YOU??.
See all you wrote was the current situation.The question is, how to change it for better.Do you have any solutions??
Hmm. Senthil, frankly i did not think in your angle. so i said u have a valid point.
something which is to be aspired for.
regarding the existing setup,
there is discrimination and identity and pride if taken to a bigger extent gives rise to discrimination on a bigger scale.
i was shocked bcos of the violence in it. I am not a brahmin by birth but i dont tink brahmins of today will resort to violence to uphold his castiest pride.
we miss no opportunity to attack brahmins' discrimination but such violent fundamentalist threasts by other communities go scott free because of votebank politics.
thats what i wanted to convey.
something which is to be aspired for.
regarding the existing setup,
there is discrimination and identity and pride if taken to a bigger extent gives rise to discrimination on a bigger scale.
i was shocked bcos of the violence in it. I am not a brahmin by birth but i dont tink brahmins of today will resort to violence to uphold his castiest pride.
we miss no opportunity to attack brahmins' discrimination but such violent fundamentalist threasts by other communities go scott free because of votebank politics.
thats what i wanted to convey.
There are two view points..
We dont need one bcoz we dont wanna discriminate ppl.
We need one to identify the downtrodden and improve their quality of life..
But the sad part is there is one simply bcoz there are ppl who make a fortune out of it.. And they dont want that to go
We dont need one bcoz we dont wanna discriminate ppl.
We need one to identify the downtrodden and improve their quality of life..
But the sad part is there is one simply bcoz there are ppl who make a fortune out of it.. And they dont want that to go
Senthil
i hibernated and i am back. i think your are right. 50 years of this identity funda and caste funda has not done anything to our communties and our country
and i think we shud do away with this concept.
If someone needs help, then i think those can be helped by all those who has conscience and humanity.
this caste system has benefited one seciton of th society against all others.i.e the politicans
i hibernated and i am back. i think your are right. 50 years of this identity funda and caste funda has not done anything to our communties and our country
and i think we shud do away with this concept.
If someone needs help, then i think those can be helped by all those who has conscience and humanity.
this caste system has benefited one seciton of th society against all others.i.e the politicans
prabhu,
"this caste system has benefited one seciton of th society against all others.i.e the politicans" good one :).
i got your point regarding the violence.Yes i also feel that the system has to be done with.
sathya,
See we dont need a caste system to identify the downtrodden. We can have different scales as economy,geographical location etc.
sathya,prabhu and lot of others have touched this topic of how politicians are the reason behind it.
Yes it is true,but that is only one part.what are we doing is the question?.
1)Ok atleast we grew up in a different era.How about our childrens.You as a knowledgeable father, would you bring up your child in those old practices?.
2)Would you like to get your children married within your caste??
"this caste system has benefited one seciton of th society against all others.i.e the politicans" good one :).
i got your point regarding the violence.Yes i also feel that the system has to be done with.
sathya,
See we dont need a caste system to identify the downtrodden. We can have different scales as economy,geographical location etc.
sathya,prabhu and lot of others have touched this topic of how politicians are the reason behind it.
Yes it is true,but that is only one part.what are we doing is the question?.
1)Ok atleast we grew up in a different era.How about our childrens.You as a knowledgeable father, would you bring up your child in those old practices?.
2)Would you like to get your children married within your caste??
Not only Bharathiyaar did that ,even Swami Vivekananda ( who himself was not a brahmin by birth ) had sacred thread ceremonies for many socially low caste people .Sared Thread has to do with Spirituality ,gayatri mantra is the way of attaining higher ideals in spirtuality .You may or may not wear sacred thread ,that is least relevant( even i don't wear of my mom is not there ) -But Gayatri Mantra is not a poesseion of Brahmins and it has to be chanted by everybody ( in case u belive in that ) .It is like a tool which any body can use and attain higher states in Spirituality - No way connected to caste ! ( Though Brahmins did that in medival times ) .
WIth respect to children ,
1.I am very much ok for my son to get married to a family of similar customs -basically a veg preferring family with some spiritual intrests and good belief in Hinduism.
2.I will definetely invest sacred thread for my son and ask them to chant Gaytri Mantra
( Jut an Info ,Kamal inspite of being an atheist ,taught his daughters adhi Sankara's Kana ka Dhara strotham ...His point is that even if he does'nt belive that ,he wants his children to find out by themselves and for that they have to be exposed to all such things )
WIth respect to children ,
1.I am very much ok for my son to get married to a family of similar customs -basically a veg preferring family with some spiritual intrests and good belief in Hinduism.
2.I will definetely invest sacred thread for my son and ask them to chant Gaytri Mantra
( Jut an Info ,Kamal inspite of being an atheist ,taught his daughters adhi Sankara's Kana ka Dhara strotham ...His point is that even if he does'nt belive that ,he wants his children to find out by themselves and for that they have to be exposed to all such things )
Senthil,
bayangara sindhanayalargal niraindha ulagama irukku :-)
My take on the topic will be out there before c.o.b.b (blog business day :p)
bayangara sindhanayalargal niraindha ulagama irukku :-)
My take on the topic will be out there before c.o.b.b (blog business day :p)
Again,
I aint claiming that its the best way to identify the downtrodden.. No person in his senses wud..
But We need this system to hold until we find a better one to classify the people like say economy and education..
But until there are ppl who take advantage of it.. they wud disrupt any new better metric to classify
I aint claiming that its the best way to identify the downtrodden.. No person in his senses wud..
But We need this system to hold until we find a better one to classify the people like say economy and education..
But until there are ppl who take advantage of it.. they wud disrupt any new better metric to classify
Robbie
We need science, where will be science without man, the mind.
Gravitation has been there since a dawn of time, but a mere apple falling from the tree triggered Newton, it has been happening for ages, with everyone noticing, but it took a Newton to introspect that and come out with truth about gravitiy.
The mind needs to be in analytical mode. It also needs moral values, humane values. so we do need spirituality. Everything need to be put in practise spirituality or science doesnt help by being merely in the books. We need both.
We need science, where will be science without man, the mind.
Gravitation has been there since a dawn of time, but a mere apple falling from the tree triggered Newton, it has been happening for ages, with everyone noticing, but it took a Newton to introspect that and come out with truth about gravitiy.
The mind needs to be in analytical mode. It also needs moral values, humane values. so we do need spirituality. Everything need to be put in practise spirituality or science doesnt help by being merely in the books. We need both.
hmm.
since u ask with all this concern.
i would like to get married with the one i like no matter who she is what she is upto.
i had someone in mind for a major part of adult life and she was not of my community.
but am also not in america and not good in interacting with girls so far so i am simple and single.
the bottom line is i wud like to get married with someone i like ( this includes physical and temperamental compataibility).
and regarding my children, if i myself with all my responsbilities today wud go ahead with someone i like, i dont its even an issue with my kids.
since u ask with all this concern.
i would like to get married with the one i like no matter who she is what she is upto.
i had someone in mind for a major part of adult life and she was not of my community.
but am also not in america and not good in interacting with girls so far so i am simple and single.
the bottom line is i wud like to get married with someone i like ( this includes physical and temperamental compataibility).
and regarding my children, if i myself with all my responsbilities today wud go ahead with someone i like, i dont its even an issue with my kids.
senthil said...
hmmmm, varied posts from ramki to prabhu.intresting.
ramki,
It is nice that you are putting what you think is right.This way everybody can clearly see the things that hinder the wheels of progress and try to find a solution.
Can i summarise your thought's like this
"Iam not loosing anything from being in the current setup.It actually has made me grow spiritually and has given me more peace and happiness. Above all iam not doing anything bad to others and iam ready to drop many of the bad customs of my community. But i want to be in the community to reaps the benefits ."
Actually this is very intresting.i dont know what to say for it.I will think about it.
robbie,
got any answers for ramki??.
arvind,
waiting for ur clear thoughts.
sathya,
ok.current setup is bad, has to change, will take time.what is ur opinion on the next generation?.what would you do as a father.Here you cna make a difference??
ghannu bhai,
:).spirituality and science is fine.What about taking a stance on this issue??.
prabu,
Great.
hmmmm, varied posts from ramki to prabhu.intresting.
ramki,
It is nice that you are putting what you think is right.This way everybody can clearly see the things that hinder the wheels of progress and try to find a solution.
Can i summarise your thought's like this
"Iam not loosing anything from being in the current setup.It actually has made me grow spiritually and has given me more peace and happiness. Above all iam not doing anything bad to others and iam ready to drop many of the bad customs of my community. But i want to be in the community to reaps the benefits ."
Actually this is very intresting.i dont know what to say for it.I will think about it.
robbie,
got any answers for ramki??.
arvind,
waiting for ur clear thoughts.
sathya,
ok.current setup is bad, has to change, will take time.what is ur opinion on the next generation?.what would you do as a father.Here you cna make a difference??
ghannu bhai,
:).spirituality and science is fine.What about taking a stance on this issue??.
prabu,
Great.
Senthil
I am clear, it has be collective issue from all the sections of the soceity pinpointing one particular community for everything doesnt help anybody.
Reservation has to go period.
It has to be based on economic factors. Agreed some really poor downtrodden people have not benefitted properly by this, they should be taken care of. One small steps at a time, things dont happen overnight. There are few cross marriages in my own family, but people are at peace with it, so its possible.
I am clear, it has be collective issue from all the sections of the soceity pinpointing one particular community for everything doesnt help anybody.
Reservation has to go period.
It has to be based on economic factors. Agreed some really poor downtrodden people have not benefitted properly by this, they should be taken care of. One small steps at a time, things dont happen overnight. There are few cross marriages in my own family, but people are at peace with it, so its possible.
Senthil ,
Ethu enna Robie VS Ramki ya ...RObie vera Biology padichu irukaaru .....Avar kuda ennale malu katta mudiyathu ..Naan vera entha week end India poren ,RObie yethavathyu Biological weapon yethavathu ennoda plane la poda porraru!!
As u might have also noticed ,staying in Hostels in one good expereince ...We never asked the caste of others ( except for obvious brahmin guys ) nor did we feel the caste ..Until recently i did'nt know the caste of my best friend,it hardly mattered ,though we retained our caste in our own family ....I think Hostels play some little role in eliminating the caste differences ( to an extent ) ..
Ethu enna Robie VS Ramki ya ...RObie vera Biology padichu irukaaru .....Avar kuda ennale malu katta mudiyathu ..Naan vera entha week end India poren ,RObie yethavathyu Biological weapon yethavathu ennoda plane la poda porraru!!
As u might have also noticed ,staying in Hostels in one good expereince ...We never asked the caste of others ( except for obvious brahmin guys ) nor did we feel the caste ..Until recently i did'nt know the caste of my best friend,it hardly mattered ,though we retained our caste in our own family ....I think Hostels play some little role in eliminating the caste differences ( to an extent ) ..
Saadhi irandozhiya verillai
Saattrungaal needhivazhuvaa nerimuraiyil
Medhiniyil ittaar periyor idaadhaar izhikulaththor
Pattaangil ullapadi
:-)
Saattrungaal needhivazhuvaa nerimuraiyil
Medhiniyil ittaar periyor idaadhaar izhikulaththor
Pattaangil ullapadi
:-)
Senthil, Robbie, Ramki....(well) All,
The need or reason behind existence of a need for a system has been outlined in my blog. (Sorry Senthil, it was too long to host it in a 'comments' space).
Any system, man made, will have something bad about. After all, we say evil exists in the world that was created by non-human power :-)
It is just that over ages, some of the systems 'stick' stigma (nothing to do with six sigma) and never go away. Is it the problem of the system or perpetrators of the system ?.
Who are the perpetrators, I guess everyone is part of it, atleast till we all ignore it. But then what do we want to dis-associate from ? Untouchability, Mis-treatment, Indifferent treatment and much more.
Do we have to dis-associate from wearing lungis, dhotis, turbans, naamams, kudumis - am not sure these in-itself contribute 'distress' and 'oppression' to other sects.
The biggest evil of all in my opinion is illiteracy. Unless and until, people are educated, you can't change *squat*, believe me *squat*. That should be where, all our energies should be focussed on.
But then, let me ask you, if amongst such bloggers, who are presumedly well-educated, if people have such differing opinions and perspectives of the same problem/malady - then what beholds of people who have completed 5th standard ? (which is what makes them literate)
So, if education is one-stop-solution for all problems in the world, is the western world where the literacy levels are so high, rid of all evils. Actually no.
The next thing is, if education in itself is not gonna solve your problems, what will.
Only one's own conscience and clear thinking.
Only when you are at-peace with your conscience and do what you feel is agreeable, do it, Else do not attempt.
Only 'YOU' can decide what is ok to do. Please don't let others do the thinking for you. Think for yourself.
Think Think Think
If everyone in the world thought about what effect their words and deeds can have on others, the world would be a better place.
P.S : Robbie dawg, whatsap with all the CAPS-LOCKED comments dude ? If everyone in the world thought about what effect their words and deeds can have on others, the world would be a better place. LOL :P
The need or reason behind existence of a need for a system has been outlined in my blog. (Sorry Senthil, it was too long to host it in a 'comments' space).
Any system, man made, will have something bad about. After all, we say evil exists in the world that was created by non-human power :-)
It is just that over ages, some of the systems 'stick' stigma (nothing to do with six sigma) and never go away. Is it the problem of the system or perpetrators of the system ?.
Who are the perpetrators, I guess everyone is part of it, atleast till we all ignore it. But then what do we want to dis-associate from ? Untouchability, Mis-treatment, Indifferent treatment and much more.
Do we have to dis-associate from wearing lungis, dhotis, turbans, naamams, kudumis - am not sure these in-itself contribute 'distress' and 'oppression' to other sects.
The biggest evil of all in my opinion is illiteracy. Unless and until, people are educated, you can't change *squat*, believe me *squat*. That should be where, all our energies should be focussed on.
But then, let me ask you, if amongst such bloggers, who are presumedly well-educated, if people have such differing opinions and perspectives of the same problem/malady - then what beholds of people who have completed 5th standard ? (which is what makes them literate)
So, if education is one-stop-solution for all problems in the world, is the western world where the literacy levels are so high, rid of all evils. Actually no.
The next thing is, if education in itself is not gonna solve your problems, what will.
Only one's own conscience and clear thinking.
Only when you are at-peace with your conscience and do what you feel is agreeable, do it, Else do not attempt.
Only 'YOU' can decide what is ok to do. Please don't let others do the thinking for you. Think for yourself.
Think Think Think
If everyone in the world thought about what effect their words and deeds can have on others, the world would be a better place.
P.S : Robbie dawg, whatsap with all the CAPS-LOCKED comments dude ? If everyone in the world thought about what effect their words and deeds can have on others, the world would be a better place. LOL :P
senthil, tha caste system is as much prevelant in cities, look at the matrimonial sectin, its classified based on caste, langauge and then the new classification of income or social standing.
but caste system has died in the sense that people interact with each other without being conscious of their caste in cities. that is a big change. the only way the caste system will disappear is along with economic power (not political power) the ST|SCs have numerous mla and reserved seats but they are economically backward as a commuity. when their income goes up, they will educate their children, who will come to learn that the entire system is outdated etc.
the last bastion of the caste system is the marriage market. if that is broken, then the caste system will die. india will become a caste-less society. this can be achieved only through increase in income and education. there is no other way
but caste system has died in the sense that people interact with each other without being conscious of their caste in cities. that is a big change. the only way the caste system will disappear is along with economic power (not political power) the ST|SCs have numerous mla and reserved seats but they are economically backward as a commuity. when their income goes up, they will educate their children, who will come to learn that the entire system is outdated etc.
the last bastion of the caste system is the marriage market. if that is broken, then the caste system will die. india will become a caste-less society. this can be achieved only through increase in income and education. there is no other way
we might break the caste system and completely destroy it, but what will fill the vaccum? we cant simply leave it empty rite,and it wont remain empty, itll get filled with some system. vaccums don remain as such forlong in society. unless an alternative method of ifferenciating is there maybe the caste system wont disappear, or even it may be necessary.
PLS HOLD UR BRICKBATS PPL, LET ME FINISH
now lets assume that the caste system is finidhed, itll leave a vaccum. ppl with their natural tendency to differenciate themselves will find another system (don ask me why ppl want to differenciate themselves, its the pursuit of uniqueness mayb, or wanting to feel special)if this system turns out to be even worse than the caste system wat do we do? or while attempts r being made to disintegrate the caste system, a new system of differenciation which is not as bad shud be introduced?
if that isnt done, isnt it easier to deal with the known devil rather than the unknown devil?
i am not defending the system, just my thoughts.
PLS HOLD UR BRICKBATS PPL, LET ME FINISH
now lets assume that the caste system is finidhed, itll leave a vaccum. ppl with their natural tendency to differenciate themselves will find another system (don ask me why ppl want to differenciate themselves, its the pursuit of uniqueness mayb, or wanting to feel special)if this system turns out to be even worse than the caste system wat do we do? or while attempts r being made to disintegrate the caste system, a new system of differenciation which is not as bad shud be introduced?
if that isnt done, isnt it easier to deal with the known devil rather than the unknown devil?
i am not defending the system, just my thoughts.
now the caste system has survived for over 1000 years, if anysystem has to survive for so long without any major changes it must have some benefits rite? if it is filled with problems and crap then why do ppl hold on to it?not jsut FCs like us even those at the lower rung. they hold onto the identity and caste of being a dalit, in UP ppl who get married outside their c aste are killed, why is is so strictly enforced?
it sudh have some benefits for it being enforced so well. the evils we all know, but what are the benefits? i don know any, any suggestions?
it sudh have some benefits for it being enforced so well. the evils we all know, but what are the benefits? i don know any, any suggestions?
ganesh,
grrrrr.This is a question not to a specific set of peoples.It is for everybody.
ramki,
I asked robbie cause your were both at the different end of the spectrum.
thennavan,
sorry can u do a english explanation for, second language HINDI guys like me :).
arvind,
Is your post some kind of a revenge for my previous comment.
"waiting for ur clear thoughts".
Well everything went 2000 ft above my head.
grrrrr.This is a question not to a specific set of peoples.It is for everybody.
ramki,
I asked robbie cause your were both at the different end of the spectrum.
thennavan,
sorry can u do a english explanation for, second language HINDI guys like me :).
arvind,
Is your post some kind of a revenge for my previous comment.
"waiting for ur clear thoughts".
Well everything went 2000 ft above my head.
1) When did these come.
2) How.
3) Why.
4) Who.
5) Do we need it?
IMHO God just created humans. We put all these lines. They have to go. I am not proud that I am a XXX and neither am I prejudiced against YYY.
We are all even/equal in the eyes of God.!
Bottom line - Caste/creed Sucks.!
2) How.
3) Why.
4) Who.
5) Do we need it?
IMHO God just created humans. We put all these lines. They have to go. I am not proud that I am a XXX and neither am I prejudiced against YYY.
We are all even/equal in the eyes of God.!
Bottom line - Caste/creed Sucks.!
vatsan,
The current situation is ok.what abt you?.what would you do when it comes to ur marriage.Atleast would you do something positive for your childrens??.Would you stand by your friend who goes out of his community with respect to marriage.
With your second argument i remembered the s.ve shekhar joke. Where he will say we are going to keep marina in malai kottai and then he will say, he will fill the vaccum created by moving marina beach by moving taj mahal to that place :).
Let me try to make u see what kind of an argument you are putting forth.Let me give a different example of your argument.The ruling party is corupt.If we vote for the another party that party will also come and do coruption.So why vote for the unknown devil.lets vote for the ruling party itself. Atleast we know how corrupt they are.
It survived because people where ignorant.Because it was forced on them.Because religion and god was involved in it.Because they were not exposed to outside world.
The current situation is ok.what abt you?.what would you do when it comes to ur marriage.Atleast would you do something positive for your childrens??.Would you stand by your friend who goes out of his community with respect to marriage.
With your second argument i remembered the s.ve shekhar joke. Where he will say we are going to keep marina in malai kottai and then he will say, he will fill the vaccum created by moving marina beach by moving taj mahal to that place :).
Let me try to make u see what kind of an argument you are putting forth.Let me give a different example of your argument.The ruling party is corupt.If we vote for the another party that party will also come and do coruption.So why vote for the unknown devil.lets vote for the ruling party itself. Atleast we know how corrupt they are.
It survived because people where ignorant.Because it was forced on them.Because religion and god was involved in it.Because they were not exposed to outside world.
Narayanan sir,
well said.I wished everybody could see things black and white.It is good or it is not.The confusion arises only when people get caught in the different colors that come along with these human divisions.
well said.I wished everybody could see things black and white.It is good or it is not.The confusion arises only when people get caught in the different colors that come along with these human divisions.
Something that i observed.
some people are still sticking to the old system, cause of the following reasons.
1)Spiritual
2)Pride
3)Because that what rest of them are doing.
The first category is a hard one.It involves religion to a great extent.To address this issue you have to go to the level of addressing the releavance of religion itself.
I think this category needs education and an environmental change.They have to realise that the confidence and pride should come from one's deed and not from an imaginary external source.
The third is something that is easy.If the overall rate of people shunning away from caste in society inceases. After a certain acceptance break point the rest of the heard will follow.
I was wondering whether there is a seperate option in the govt forms, to mention that i dont belong to any religion or caste??.Am i supposed to tick one??
some people are still sticking to the old system, cause of the following reasons.
1)Spiritual
2)Pride
3)Because that what rest of them are doing.
The first category is a hard one.It involves religion to a great extent.To address this issue you have to go to the level of addressing the releavance of religion itself.
I think this category needs education and an environmental change.They have to realise that the confidence and pride should come from one's deed and not from an imaginary external source.
The third is something that is easy.If the overall rate of people shunning away from caste in society inceases. After a certain acceptance break point the rest of the heard will follow.
I was wondering whether there is a seperate option in the govt forms, to mention that i dont belong to any religion or caste??.Am i supposed to tick one??
senthil, i agree with ur ruling party arguement, the point is that we will vote and hopefully a corruption free party will come to power.,
probably the best way to begin wud be to allow for economic progress, give equal opportunities, caste wud disapper, it cannot be forcably removed and crushed, its a gradual progress.
i am 20, and havent tot bout marriage, but am sure i am not particurlar bout caste.
i strongly believe that elimination of the caste system lies in economic progress
probably the best way to begin wud be to allow for economic progress, give equal opportunities, caste wud disapper, it cannot be forcably removed and crushed, its a gradual progress.
i am 20, and havent tot bout marriage, but am sure i am not particurlar bout caste.
i strongly believe that elimination of the caste system lies in economic progress
I'm bit concerned that anything anicent is thrown away ! Anicent Gurukul Systems had their own benefits - the positive aspects needs to be retained ,it is definetely impractical to live with the teacher and so some service to him in these days .
But the essential aspect of Gurukul is not just that -The essence as i have understood is that teh student catches the spirit of agood spiritual /moral life by seeing a good example .If you have read WIngs Of Fire ,you can see how Abdul Kalam was inspired by his teacher ! We need teachers who can teach scientific thinking and also incoporate moral values to the children .
As i said ,i will stick to my caste practices - but i will not discriminate between castes( which i have been following ) and as such i'm very open for inter caste marriages between similar parties .
But the essential aspect of Gurukul is not just that -The essence as i have understood is that teh student catches the spirit of agood spiritual /moral life by seeing a good example .If you have read WIngs Of Fire ,you can see how Abdul Kalam was inspired by his teacher ! We need teachers who can teach scientific thinking and also incoporate moral values to the children .
As i said ,i will stick to my caste practices - but i will not discriminate between castes( which i have been following ) and as such i'm very open for inter caste marriages between similar parties .
senthil you are seems to look everything only from your communist point of view, there comes the problem ;)
senthil thambi
ippo,namma IR collection pathi pesalam
I wanted list few more songs, but thought of just taking 1 cd to island so which songs that will be.
Its was tough.
ippo,namma IR collection pathi pesalam
I wanted list few more songs, but thought of just taking 1 cd to island so which songs that will be.
Its was tough.
If I were from Low caste.. I wont get a Caste certificate..
But Im not.. Believe me One day I will become a politician and wud conduct the way i shud :)
Actions speak better
But Im not.. Believe me One day I will become a politician and wud conduct the way i shud :)
Actions speak better
senthil innum rendu comments vandha half century.
"Alavaga veesapatta pandhu, senthil
mid-on pakkamaga mattayai sooshati adithar !!
"Alavaga veesapatta pandhu, senthil
mid-on pakkamaga mattayai sooshati adithar !!
vatsan,
yes economic progress is also a major contributor.But not sure how far the the benifits are going to tricle to the backward societies in our trickle down economy.
Ramki,
Gurukul is too much. please... Abdul kamal was inspired by a teacher right.If you install the gurukul system an inspired student like abdul kalam cannot make missiles, he can only graze cows for his master.If you are morally right, that itself is enough. your child dont need another better example that you,his/her parent.Please think before what you are saying.You are asking to rewind our society too 400/500 years back.
Ramki most of the ancient things where made for that time period.It is sad that we dont want to adapt to the current situations.If you say one good thing for an ancient practice, i can say 20 bad things about it.
Ganesh,
Yenna communist apadinnu muthirai kuthiyacha.I am not an all out commi.I like few things about it.I like communism for it does not have any room for caste or religion.
I can only tell my views because You are not even putting your views...
IR post, itho vanthutaen.
sathya,
onnum puriyalla
yes economic progress is also a major contributor.But not sure how far the the benifits are going to tricle to the backward societies in our trickle down economy.
Ramki,
Gurukul is too much. please... Abdul kamal was inspired by a teacher right.If you install the gurukul system an inspired student like abdul kalam cannot make missiles, he can only graze cows for his master.If you are morally right, that itself is enough. your child dont need another better example that you,his/her parent.Please think before what you are saying.You are asking to rewind our society too 400/500 years back.
Ramki most of the ancient things where made for that time period.It is sad that we dont want to adapt to the current situations.If you say one good thing for an ancient practice, i can say 20 bad things about it.
Ganesh,
Yenna communist apadinnu muthirai kuthiyacha.I am not an all out commi.I like few things about it.I like communism for it does not have any room for caste or religion.
I can only tell my views because You are not even putting your views...
IR post, itho vanthutaen.
sathya,
onnum puriyalla
In our part of the world, where the political parties plays the religious (caste) cards, this will go on. In Kerala, even the communists make it a practice to please the religious leaders foreseeing the election (but not as much as Congress or BJP). I wonder if I could ever see a school admission form which can be filled without mentioning my religion and caste.
BTW, I am not an aethist and I believe in God. The more I am attached to God, the more I hate the religion!!!
Senthil ,
1.I never avocated Gurukul System .Please read my post carefully .I have only said that the positive aspects of it needs to be taken and clearly i have mentioned that it is impractical now .
2.Please remember kings were trained only in Gurukul - so it was perfect in those days .My point is that we don't have teachers who can inspire people .In a day a child spends around 9 hours with the in school ,3-4 hours with other children at play ,8 in sleep and only rest with parents .It is very essential that the teachers have the mentaility of ancient Guru,where the teacher does not differentiate between a teacher and student ( in knowledge form ) .TV parthu puttu ,don't have ur own ideas about Guru kul !
3.In teh current form of Guru Kul ,you will have different adaption .If you see Ramakrishna Mutt ,they have adopted this - They learn lot of sciences ,History ,Technicla things and with that spiritual studies under the guidance of teachers .Of course we are not forming sanyasins here and hence a modified form of it is required.
4.Why should you hate religion when you think of god ? Diversity has to exists ,different paths have to come .Even in Hinduism you have so many paths of worship depending on the induvidual's capacity to understand things .
1.I never avocated Gurukul System .Please read my post carefully .I have only said that the positive aspects of it needs to be taken and clearly i have mentioned that it is impractical now .
2.Please remember kings were trained only in Gurukul - so it was perfect in those days .My point is that we don't have teachers who can inspire people .In a day a child spends around 9 hours with the in school ,3-4 hours with other children at play ,8 in sleep and only rest with parents .It is very essential that the teachers have the mentaility of ancient Guru,where the teacher does not differentiate between a teacher and student ( in knowledge form ) .TV parthu puttu ,don't have ur own ideas about Guru kul !
3.In teh current form of Guru Kul ,you will have different adaption .If you see Ramakrishna Mutt ,they have adopted this - They learn lot of sciences ,History ,Technicla things and with that spiritual studies under the guidance of teachers .Of course we are not forming sanyasins here and hence a modified form of it is required.
4.Why should you hate religion when you think of god ? Diversity has to exists ,different paths have to come .Even in Hinduism you have so many paths of worship depending on the induvidual's capacity to understand things .
Jo chetta
nannayi
Senthil listen to agmark malayali JO from kerala talking about communist.
So please dont ever say Kerala is the best becoz of communist.
OK I take back your communist stamp away.
congrats on half century.
Cast has to go away I have no second thoughts on that, but have to start from every house
nannayi
Senthil listen to agmark malayali JO from kerala talking about communist.
So please dont ever say Kerala is the best becoz of communist.
OK I take back your communist stamp away.
congrats on half century.
Cast has to go away I have no second thoughts on that, but have to start from every house
jo,
Thanxs for the info.What i meant was i liked the concept of not bringing god and caste into the equation at all.There are always exceptions, but there are also so many true communists who dont do those cheap election tricks.
ramki,
"It is very essential that the teachers have the mentaility of ancient Guru,where the teacher does not differentiate between a teacher and student".
How do you know that an ancient guru was good??.What if i said some of the guru's where phedophiles.How would you know that they were good or not.
What about the gurus who took the thumb of the ekhalaiva's.The dhronacharya who didn't want to teach karna.Ramki think again.You are imagining an ancient gurukul as something that was told to you in a bedtime story.A teacher/guru is just another human being and a guru would have done what ever the present day class teacher is doing.
well iam not sure about the ramkrishna mutt system.but isn't every child have a teacher for every subject and a class teacher for overall advice.
Are u going to india?.Iam thought of posting short stories from next week only.... :(
ganesh,
Lot of things are different in kerala becaus eof communist only.You would have read about joi's post in srivatsan's blog, so dont have to ellaborate on that.
thanQ thanQ
Cast has to go away I have no second thoughts on that, but have to start from every house'.cool. when is it starting in your house??
Thanxs for the info.What i meant was i liked the concept of not bringing god and caste into the equation at all.There are always exceptions, but there are also so many true communists who dont do those cheap election tricks.
ramki,
"It is very essential that the teachers have the mentaility of ancient Guru,where the teacher does not differentiate between a teacher and student".
How do you know that an ancient guru was good??.What if i said some of the guru's where phedophiles.How would you know that they were good or not.
What about the gurus who took the thumb of the ekhalaiva's.The dhronacharya who didn't want to teach karna.Ramki think again.You are imagining an ancient gurukul as something that was told to you in a bedtime story.A teacher/guru is just another human being and a guru would have done what ever the present day class teacher is doing.
well iam not sure about the ramkrishna mutt system.but isn't every child have a teacher for every subject and a class teacher for overall advice.
Are u going to india?.Iam thought of posting short stories from next week only.... :(
ganesh,
Lot of things are different in kerala becaus eof communist only.You would have read about joi's post in srivatsan's blog, so dont have to ellaborate on that.
thanQ thanQ
Cast has to go away I have no second thoughts on that, but have to start from every house'.cool. when is it starting in your house??
Senthil,
Communism ellam vandhadhunaala, let me refer you to George Orwell's 'Animal Farm' - It is a must read.
Also, namma management guru, Peter Drucker's Post Capitalist Society (Have them in my book review archives ;p)
One thing i honestly did not understand in the entire post is what you are all trying to say.
Are you against discrimination based on caste, Are you against people belonging to caste, Are you against caste based on God, Are you against God ?
If you are against
a)people belonging to caste,
*every* religion in the world, including the communist, western, eastern world :P, has the castes in their religious system.
b)God,
Then you should implement your 2 month plan to re-re-re-read my post of Caste,Religion Etc again
c)Caste Based on God,
You should change your plan to 4 month plan and then you should implement your 4 month plan to re-re-re-read my post of Caste,Religion Etc again and again and again
and, You should create a new world
d)discrimination based on caste
Work towards educating people that dont mistreating people and abuse people means simply outrageous and unacceptable behavior
Communism ellam vandhadhunaala, let me refer you to George Orwell's 'Animal Farm' - It is a must read.
Also, namma management guru, Peter Drucker's Post Capitalist Society (Have them in my book review archives ;p)
One thing i honestly did not understand in the entire post is what you are all trying to say.
Are you against discrimination based on caste, Are you against people belonging to caste, Are you against caste based on God, Are you against God ?
If you are against
a)people belonging to caste,
*every* religion in the world, including the communist, western, eastern world :P, has the castes in their religious system.
b)God,
Then you should implement your 2 month plan to re-re-re-read my post of Caste,Religion Etc again
c)Caste Based on God,
You should change your plan to 4 month plan and then you should implement your 4 month plan to re-re-re-read my post of Caste,Religion Etc again and again and again
and, You should create a new world
d)discrimination based on caste
Work towards educating people that dont mistreating people and abuse people means simply outrageous and unacceptable behavior
Senthil,
I believed in communism just a few years ago and I thought it would bring us the heaven of socialism. But then the party started a 50-crore TV channel (KAIRALI) and now they are going to begin an amusement park in Kerala!!!
I couldn't believe a people's party starting a TV channel investing 50-crore ruppees to convey the ideology? I know there still some good communists in the party, but they have no voice or opinions within the party. So obviously, I lost hope in them. The now communists are more of a corporate company or something. And they make mess throughout the state, so they do not have support. The good old communists gurus are being eliminated from the party.
I believed in communism just a few years ago and I thought it would bring us the heaven of socialism. But then the party started a 50-crore TV channel (KAIRALI) and now they are going to begin an amusement park in Kerala!!!
I couldn't believe a people's party starting a TV channel investing 50-crore ruppees to convey the ideology? I know there still some good communists in the party, but they have no voice or opinions within the party. So obviously, I lost hope in them. The now communists are more of a corporate company or something. And they make mess throughout the state, so they do not have support. The good old communists gurus are being eliminated from the party.
arvind,
I have read animal farm.So what are u trying to say?.your philosphy of being happy with what ever that is there??.
If u look at ur a,b,c,d options,they are all inter related to each other and not seperate topics(from what i understand).If it is more complex then i have to put another two month 2 understand this comment of urs :).
jo,
all i said was that i like the the part that it completely takes releigion and caste from the picture .which kind of clears so many confusion.The way it is implemented, what is happening in reality might differ.But what i was saying was that is a good thing to consider for the other parties also.Do completely get these 2 thigns out of the equation and see clearly.
I have read animal farm.So what are u trying to say?.your philosphy of being happy with what ever that is there??.
If u look at ur a,b,c,d options,they are all inter related to each other and not seperate topics(from what i understand).If it is more complex then i have to put another two month 2 understand this comment of urs :).
jo,
all i said was that i like the the part that it completely takes releigion and caste from the picture .which kind of clears so many confusion.The way it is implemented, what is happening in reality might differ.But what i was saying was that is a good thing to consider for the other parties also.Do completely get these 2 thigns out of the equation and see clearly.
Brahmins were the ones who fought for freedom and responsible for abolishing the Zamindari system just because they most of them hardly benefited from the Zamindari system and the British. That is the reason for their being tortured even today.
No one should take pity on them as they have an inferiority complex because of being born in that caste (Brahmin) and thus help only individuals of their own caste even if people of noble birth were helpful to them in great many ways.
Mudaliars were the ones who revered them and gave them Mirasdari rights , agraharams, etc. for their survival, without which they would have been much worse off than now. For the Mudaliars, it is a well-deserved quota but even an ST quota won't be enough to gain what they lost because of the abolishing of the Zamindari system. The golden day for Mudaliars is the day when the MBC quota is obtained.
No one should take pity on them as they have an inferiority complex because of being born in that caste (Brahmin) and thus help only individuals of their own caste even if people of noble birth were helpful to them in great many ways.
Mudaliars were the ones who revered them and gave them Mirasdari rights , agraharams, etc. for their survival, without which they would have been much worse off than now. For the Mudaliars, it is a well-deserved quota but even an ST quota won't be enough to gain what they lost because of the abolishing of the Zamindari system. The golden day for Mudaliars is the day when the MBC quota is obtained.
# posted by : 11:37 AM
: 11:37 AM
do you know why IIT's , IIM's ppl feel superior OR why lower casts ask reservation in IIT / IIM. cant they start their own institution and bring it up instead of begging reservation there ?
Similar to it, instead of asking ppl not to follow caste system, that is usually said by person who is not happy about his caste, better the person become one like Ambedkar and create another 1000 ambedkar istead of asking just reservation.
From all the above discussions, it is very evident that what ever quota is given, other casts being not able to think/perform well, still envy upper casts.
Bottom line : Who ever wants here to stop following caste system Stop just discussing caste here and do something useful to ppl who need you.
Post a Comment
Similar to it, instead of asking ppl not to follow caste system, that is usually said by person who is not happy about his caste, better the person become one like Ambedkar and create another 1000 ambedkar istead of asking just reservation.
From all the above discussions, it is very evident that what ever quota is given, other casts being not able to think/perform well, still envy upper casts.
Bottom line : Who ever wants here to stop following caste system Stop just discussing caste here and do something useful to ppl who need you.
# posted by : 10:51 AM
: 10:51 AM << Home
